TF2 6v6 基本戰術及資訊 - Steam

TF2 - 怎樣才能變強 http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=37375
by bowt (手握沒人比他多的六個冠軍 現任澳洲最強隊伍clan A的scout, 名人堂成員)

像其他遊戲一樣，TF2成功的要素就是變的強，變的強的墊腳石就是去想遊戲怎麼運作，
然後熟練各種情況。

我收到很多人跟我說他們有溝通上的困難。有溝通上的困難，通常是因為他們不去想遊戲
是怎麼進行的。如果你不去想遊戲是怎麼進行的，那你是要怎麼溝通咧？當我去等級比較
低的隊伍幫打比賽的時候，我發現他們沒有溝通上的問題，而是不知道要說什麼重要的話
。

No Mercy寫了一篇非常好的文章 http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=37274
不過他提到"當我在Intensity隊伍的時候，溝通一直是他們的問題，像是過度熱心給予太
多亂七八糟資訊的scout，沉默的combo (combo指的是medic+主要的soldier)，或是一些
根本不講話的人。"

我發現Intensity一直沒有進步，他們一直在加強溝通，但是實際上沒有什麼進展。對話
中時常摻雜著一些籠統的話語，像是"我們要加強團隊合作""我們沒有重武器(Soldier
demo)的配合""我們沒有好好地擅用uber"，我去Intensity解散之前幫打比賽了幾次，發現
他們有很糟糕的溝通。解散意外嗎?

我現在的隊伍Clan A很像當時的Intensity，兩個前Intensity的成員(Sheep Yuki)，還有
其他成員cruger aporia還有amd。這些人組在一起怎麼可能會變強?

如果我要去話一個餅圖，80%會是去想要怎麼應付各種情況，然後5%才是溝通。當我告訴他
們要怎麼改進之後，隊伍進步的非常的快。

只管你所看到的

這就是為什麼我說99%糟糕的TF2玩家完全不知道遊戲裡面發生了什麼事情。為什麼？因為
他們只注意到他們所能看見的東西。好的玩家知道遊戲裡面發生了什麼，然後怎麼去運用
他們的優勢/劣勢。

優勢/劣勢

TF2最重要的就是領域的佔領，要怎麼去佔領領域，就是要運用隊伍的優勢，所謂的優勢，
就是uber優勢以及人數上的優勢。

我拿Granary來做一個例子


情況一 6vs6 進攻cp4 有uber優勢

這時候你的隊伍已經佔領了庭院(cp3跟cp4中間那一塊)，你的uber是100%，而敵對只有20%
沒有人數上的優勢只有uber優勢。

uber demoman

為什麼? 因為倉庫是室內，Soldier比較難運用他的rocket，rocket jump也不容易，demo
可以用他的sticky到比較難到的地方(好比說二樓的部分)。如果要uber soldier的話，
我會建議從左方二樓推進，不過我不建議這麼做，因為很耗時間。那一般推進的時候，
scout會跟著demoman一起進去。
像是這樣 http://www.ozfortress.com/media/videos/TF2/2547/example.mp4
(demo+medic scout跟著進去，同時間soldier從左方干擾)

情況二 6vs6 進攻cp4 uber一樣 敵方少了demoman

基本上很容易壓制住對方得攻擊(沒有了demo的stickies)，第二個soldier從左邊進攻，
主要的Soldier跟demo還有medic一起從右邊捲門進去，然後scout佔領cp4跟注意敵方scout

情況三 6vs6 進攻cp4 uber劣勢

這裡沒有所謂的進攻，因為有uber劣勢。你不想在一個地方讓敵方用uber輕鬆地幹掉你吧。
基本上就是守在外面，看能不能逼他們先用uber然後自己趕快退後取得uber優勢。

情況四 6vs6 進攻cp4 uber一樣 敵方少soldier跟scout

重武器可以試著直接進攻，然後scout到敵方後面逼他們用uber。

戰術

希望上面的例子給你們概念戰術不是一個最好的方法。因為大部分的時間有太多的因素影響
到你們的戰術，像是uber跟人數上的優勢或劣勢。所以上面的例子只是情況，下面我來解說
如何運用一些戰術。這些戰術是在兩邊有同等優勢的情況下使用。

Scout佔領 重武器繼續進攻

這是很多人犯的錯誤。一個很常見的"不去想遊戲怎麼運作"

舉個例，在Granary你的隊伍贏了mid-fight，有一個soldier兩個scouts一個medic活著，
對方，對方只有一個demo跟一個medic活著然後已經撤退。如果你用上述的戰術，soldier
跟medic是要怎麼去應付對方的demoman跟medic還有復活的其他人？如果你讓重武器佔領
cp3，讓兩個scout進攻，不但能幹掉敵對那兩個並且取得uber優勢，而且還能夠佔領更多
的領域(庭院)。

不過，有些時候確實scout佔領，重武器推進是必要的。
舉個例，敵對全部死掉，重武器全部推進取得更大的領域。 (uber+人數優勢)
或是對方剩下一個soldier跟medic，你的隊伍全部活著，重武器推進能輕鬆解決他們。

另外，當你有人數上的優勢，你絕對不想先用uber。或是當你在防守cp2或是cp3，對方uber
的時候，你會先撤退，然後再推進用uber反制。

建議

剛開始其實是很難去應付更種情況，所以我建議用最簡單的戰術。當你有優勢的時候，
推進並且保護medic。有劣勢的時候，防守。看高手比賽的demo，看他們怎們運用戰術。
最後就是，不要任意修改你的滑鼠靈敏度，準心大小，準心顏色，或是新的滑鼠。

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下面No Mercy有補充 (我不翻譯了)

Sounds basic but it is rarely properly considered what advantages are truly
present and how they stack up against each other and even harder again, what
the best course of action for any given advantage is. Knowing this in the
many different cases takes time and experience to learn but simplistic models
of the most significant potential advantages will go a long way.

Having uber while the other team doesnt is a huge advantage if and only iff
you can spend your uber to kill their medic, or alternatively bully them out
of areas without using your uber. Using up your uber to take ground and
capping a point but killing very little is a failed push; now they have uber
advantage and will punish you if you dont equally waste their uber, done by
playing defensively with escape routes.

Both teams having uber vs both teams not having uber is only useful in
situations where map positionings (aka choke points) dictate the defensive
teams advantage, often only made significant by their demoman. It is ten
seconds of positional disrupting, and escape insurance - not much more. Thus
grinding your uber at the cost of them getting one too is rarely a
significant advantage (it often still is) for the attacking team, and
certainly not worth pursuing to miss out on exploiting those player picks you
just got instead.

Player wise for a defending team:
Medic > Demo > Soldier > Scout (in the vast majority of spots on maps)
Though, Scout & Scout > Soli & Scout often
Consider this sort of heirarchy when evaluating how good your advantage is.

Map shape (choke points for demo/soli, open spaces & obstacles for scouts,
aerial mid/close perches for solis etc) may affect this slightly, as does the
known skill of individual opponents will also affect the singificant of
player advantages. Scouts gain value in lower number battles.

The size of your advantage as well as which team it swings to is also
important.
-A small advantage may be used to steal a larger one, or perhaps its not
worth using at all (as the natural disavantage of being the aggressor, or the
attempting risk overwhelms it)
-A better one should mean taking some ground
-A huge one may mean 2+ cap points or if the other team is stupid, all 5 as
you 'steam-roll', killing lone respawners to maintain your huge advantage.

When your advatage is great, dont throw away your life riskily. Trading kills
may be beneficial, but theres a good chance your team will just be able to
gang up and do it a safer way. Conversely trading kills (i dont mean a scout
getting a medic, obv that turns out well) on the defense is usually a bad
idea, (would you rather be 4v5 or 2v3?). Sometimes it may be done by 1 scout
to buy time, though only when desperate.

At any moment something may happen to immediately shift the status of your
advantage (often outside your individual control), and the speed which you
react to this is a game breaker.

What to do strategically with any specific advantage is harder to show
without examples as every case will be unique, but its not a bible of
hard-coded plays, its just made up thinking about what classes (or uber)
youve got up, what they lack, and what this means when thinking about what
each class is good and bad at, or where it means they arnt so strong in
defense positionally.

So next time you've killled both their stupid +fwd scouts or their demo, and
you want to finish off you uber before you push, even if the other team is
equally grinding... dont, just push.

PS: all this relates to push maps, A/D has similarities but also requires a
generally different outlook.


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另外amd也補充

Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis
Teams can be fine on 5cp maps when the adv/disadv is easily kept track of
leading to a push/pull metagame where teams will push with advantage or
fallback and delay until they dont have a disadvantage. But what i find is
this mindframe is different for A/D maps like gravelpit. Should you be using
utility players or suicide runs to get picks and gain yourself an advantage
and then push with it?

I will give my opinion which COULD DEFINITELY be wrong or different to what
other people think.

If you are attacking B on Gravelpit and both teams have even uber you want to
gain some sort of positional or player advantage before you uber. Using uber
straight into the sentry with demoman then ending with bad positioning and
dying is not very good. If you are able to gain control of the roof with your
soldiers and take out sentry without using uber with demo (is possible in
every common spot people put sentries) then you are able to use your uber
with a player/position advantage or sometimes even force enemy team to leave
the point and you retain uber.

If you have recently failed an unsuccessful push and everybody is respawning
you then have a 40 second window while combo grinds uber for rest of team to
attempt 1 or 2 suicide attempts. This is much better then simply waiting
around and if you are able to get a crucial medic/demo/engineer+sentry pick
that puts you in a great position. Just do not do suicides when you are close
to uber as you want to be pushing as soon as you get it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis
Or should you push everybody as a team? Should you be falling back and
conceding a point when you have a big enough disadvantage? Or should you try
and delay the point and lower your disadvantage by getting a key pick on
important players?

Keeping your medic alive is the key to being able to defend C after losing
A/B, if your medic dies late in the defense while you are trying to slow them
down or retake then you pretty much concede C. If you watch CSM finals of -A-
vs << on gravelpit you will see us lose our entire team on a retake and
consequently lose point C without even a contest. It comes down to whether or
not you feel you can do the retake or continue to defend based on players
that are alive and uber %. On retakes it is important to know how many
players they have on cap point (usually 2 scouts) and this gives you a player
advantage on retake as long as you don't walk into stickies (think of a
retake as though you are attacking the point).


Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis
I find that A/D maps are much more difficult than 5cp ones, even though the
advantage/disadvantage principle still rings true. Are there different
considerations when it comes to A/D maps over 5cp maps?

A/D maps are generally easier because the amount of situations that can arise
are limited, although mistakes on these maps lead to bigger consequences.
There are definitely differences in considerations especially when playing
against/with sentry guns and the great uses of height for heavies and more
that i can't think of atm.

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既然台灣玩TF2比賽的人不多，我就不翻譯其他文章了，有興趣的可以上ozfortress
自行觀看。澳洲的戰術跟美國相似，就是很一般的class，很少用heavy，除非新的手套
開放以後可能會有增加的趨勢。

那下面我提供一些其他資訊
CommFT
http://www.youtube.com/user/CommFT
裡面有各種職業教學(當然是比賽的職業)，Top Plays of the month，moments of glory
非常推薦!! 說到moments of glory，我隊友曾經被選入，而且還登上TF2 blog過!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MNGRSY9t0g
對!!dustbowl也可以比賽。殺了4個澳洲第二強隊rewound，包括telefrag我高中同學XDD

ESEA 美國各強隊的demo
http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s=demos

ozfortress 澳洲/紐西蘭聯盟
http://www.ozfortress.com/

台灣TF2 blog
http://tf2comnews.blogspot.com/

Gamestah 澳洲比賽轉撥
http://www.gamestah.com/files/pc/team-fortress-2/ozfortress

還有一個就是Yuki在上週Lan Party總冠軍戰的pov
http://www.ozfortress.com/media/demos/TF2/2961/Bowt_vs_SGL
bowt這麼說"這是我看過最好的pov，我沒有袒護他(他們兩個是隊友)因為我不喜歡他，
這麼厲害是因為他的隊伍很明顯比較弱，整場只贏了一次mid-fight還可以贏4-3。
(對手有4個bowt的前隊伍mad dogz成員 但都已退休 加上兩個div1的選手)

如果有問題的話可以問我，或是有澳洲的朋友想要加我也沒問題
http://steamcommunity.com/id/estrana

補充:
Demoman rollout on Granary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_z0JVLeLY
Demoman rollout on Badlands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOXSlBzQBZ8
Soldier rollout on Badlands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc8alcQvUjA

coL.Jaeger 小技巧
第一集 Bonk的使用 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsgSAco5gB8
第二集 Gravelpit C點防守 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ny4sE9xGg
第三集 Freight的bug (已不適用) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbMJZ_Vfs9c
第四集 探測角落是否有埋伏的敵人 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLw5IfiSzc8
第五集 medic 治療的順序 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCzCJcQjxPY

medic治療的速度 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7Tzq168Bs

rocket jump strafing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcNhmrtAlkk
這個也是 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxoLwaXWUY
同理 demoman也可以這樣做 只要一直按住蹲下鍵即可

rocket jump script (不建議使用 但是新手可以試試看)
不建議的原因是因為手動的話可以飛的比較遠 且可以自由控制飛行高度
不過真要練的好是要花好久的時間 如果懶的練的話就用下面的script

//Rocket Jump
alias +rocketjump "+jump;+duck;wait;+attack"
alias -rocketjump "-jump;-attack;wait;wait;wait;-duck"
bind mouse2 "+rocketjump"

上面那四行字貼在soldier.cfg
(steam/steamapps/username/team fortress 2/tf/cfg裡面)

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